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Re: 2.4.38


*to thank* (oh my)

> Am 09.11.2018 um 16:51 schrieb Stefan Eissing <stefan.eissing@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> 
> I would like all who replied in this thread for their feedback. It is good
> to hear that many are looking forward to frequent releases, especially as
> the field we are all working in continues to develop.
> 
> Apache httpd is a server capable of many things, all configurable in various
> ways and even extendable by modules beyond our control here. In short, the
> combinations in which this software is used is beyond our capabilities to
> verify absolutely.
> 
> That makes it tricky, when bringing in "new stuff", not to break anything.
> Because, frankly, before it breaks, we are not always aware that it was used
> that way. (Would we be, we would have tried to fix is before release - ideally).
> 
> So, the chance is high that releases we do will work for most of you.
> AND the chance is high that releases might break something for some of you (hopefully a few).
> 
> We can wiggle the probabilities by a range of activities:
> - more test cases
> - less new features
> but we will never eliminate them. Complexity is too high.
> 
> That is where distros play a crucial role, IMO, as they invest in
> stabilization of the many products they integrate and, as a user,
> you can select from a range of options depending on your willingness
> to bleed vs. desire for stability.
> 
> But people who directly use the product from us are as least as
> important. I got a lot of feedback on HTTP/2 that way (read: you
> found my mistakes) and the quality we have today would not have been
> possible without that. Which benefits everyone. So, thank you!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Stefan
> 
>> Am 09.11.2018 um 15:54 schrieb Moradhassel, Kavian <kmoradha@xxxxxxxxx>:
>> 
>> +1 (as one of the 99.9999999999%)
>> 
>> In particular: "I'd prefer frequent releases and honest changelogs."
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Niklas Edmundsson <nikke@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> Reply-To: "dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Date: Friday, November 9, 2018 at 8:10 AM
>> To: "dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: 2.4.38
>> 
>> 
>> I usually don't like top-posts, but I just want to say that I agree 
>> completely with everything Barry stated below.
>> 
>> If you as an admin want an easy life, use the distro version.
>> 
>> If you have good reasons to build yourself simply suck it up and 
>> accept the maintenance pain (which it is, since you need to cater for 
>> updating all the dependencies as well if you want all the latest in 
>> features/fixes). And do read the release notes and upgrade only when 
>> there is a need.
>> 
>> Btw, regular releases increases the chance of distros picking up a 
>> somewhat current version with known fixes when they roll a new distro 
>> release.
>> 
>> I'd prefer frequent releases and honest changelogs. I'm more scared by 
>> projects that have no releases, since that tends to show dead 
>> development or some kind of idealistic view that software can be 
>> "finished" and not needing any more work done on it...
>> 
>>> On Fri, 9 Nov 2018, Barry Pollard wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Disagree. My 2 cents as a watcher, administrator and user:
>>> 
>>> 1/ they have better things to do
>>> 
>>> Then don’t take the release! If a release contains security patches (so they should take it), then I don’t see how hiding the issue by holding back the release helps.
>>> 
>>> 2/ it gives impression of immature and buggy software - this gives thoughts towards alternatives,  IRC shows many admins have no loyalty todays much of todays software (well, windows fanbois excepted.
>>> 
>>> Massively disagree. Frequent release to me give the impression of an actively maintained and evolving project. And there are a lot of changes in the HTTP space (HTTP/2, move to encryption, increased awareness on security...etc.).
>>> 
>>> 3/ As a consequence of 1 & 2, they will not upgrade, this might be trivial for little thigs, but when a nasty bug comes out, this is what comes to mind"  oh fsck it, we just upgraded httpd  last week, screw it, we'll wait" - they get bitten, CIOs demand heads, remaining souls dump httpd and install nginx or some other alternative
>>> 
>>> Discussed above. And nginx releases monthly (http://nginx.org/en/CHANGES) which I’d be happy if Apache HTTPD moved to.
>>> 
>>> 4/ dont be fooled into thinking  its the package managers role, many networks run on RedHat EL, SuseEL, and debian, but far from all - and even those distro package maintainers get sick to F'n death of it after a while and skip updates.
>>> 
>>> I do wish Apache would run its own “official” repo to make upgrading to latest easier. Don’t have the expertise to help with this and understand it was done in the past and given up due to lack of people who did but still think it’s a shame we don’t. I think this is an area nginx does stand out. Upgrading Nginx is often as simple as “yum update” or “apt-get”. They even run a repo for their mainline version for those that want to be bleeding edge.
>>> 
>>> Do not be delusional - this has happened many times before.
>>> 
>>> I give you dovecot as example, it wasnt that long ago a new release was coming out weekly, sometimes only a few days apart, people get sick of updating, some people are still today running versions a year old because of it, I know of a few who moved to "courier", an oldy but a goody.
>>> 
>>> And some people are still running Apache Httpd 2.2 or 2.4.6. I don’t think that’s anything to do with the frequency of releases.
>>> 
>>> The release often mentality might be good for a new nurturing project, but that is not httpd.
>>> 
>>> System admins want stability.
>>> 
>>> Maybe, but that’s not the world we live in. And others want features and we shouldn’t give the impression Httpd is legacy because it lacks the features other web servers may have. Stay on packages managed version of 2.4.6 if you want and just take the security updates that your package manager is responsible to include.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> /Nikke
>> -- 
>> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>> Niklas Edmundsson, Admin @ {acc,hpc2n}.umu.se      |     nikke@xxxxxxxxxx
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> If life had a vomit meter, we'd be off the scale.
>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>> 
>