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Re: [DISCUSS] Concerns about the Arrow Slack channel


Here's my best guess, emails force everyone on the list to read it, so they
have to meet a higher bar of importance?

Pure guess there, im just channeling my experiences- I dont mind mailing
dev lists personally

Dhruv

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Phillip Cloud <cpcloud@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Dhruv,
>
> I'm curious why the dev mailing list is considered intrusive. Can you
> expand a bit on that? I've always thought of mailing lists to be *the*
> place where people go to ask questions about a project in a way that is
> open to all. They are also archived and organized in some way that makes it
> easy to go back and look at specific topics without having to piece
> together a topic's history from a large tapestry of interactions. If
> anything, I view chat as *more* intrusive since there's IMO an expectation
> of a faster response given that chat is real-time.
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:13 AM Dhruv Madeka <madeka@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Not to jump in too randomly, but for jupyter-widgets/bqplot
> > <https://github.com/bloomberg/bqplot> - we haven't found an optimal
> > solution to this.
> >
> > - The dev mailing list is often considered to be intrusive
> > - GitHub issues arent really used for simple questions or non-bug fixes
> > - Gitter remains our most popular source of questions, which suffers a
> lot
> > of the problems of Slack outlined in Wes' email
> >
> > We're considering discuss forums, specially after the large success of
> the
> > PyTorch <https://discuss.pytorch.org> and MXNet <
> https://discuss.mxnet.io>
> > forums for building community, allowing comfort in asking simple
> questions
> > and being stored/googleable
> >
> > Dhruv
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 4:25 AM, Wes McKinney <wesmckinn@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >
> > > hi all,
> > >
> > > I wanted to bring up some concerns I have about the Slack room hosted
> > > at http://apachearrow.slack.com.
> > >
> > > Corporate communications have changed a lot in recent years with the
> > > new wave of IRC-like chat systems such as HipChat and Slack. In many
> > > companies, Slack has become a preferred form of communication over
> > > e-mail or other asynchronous messaging tools. This trend is negatively
> > > impacting Apache Arrow in some ways that I will explain.
> > >
> > > Initially we created the Arrow Slack channel as a means of secondary
> > > communication, to facilitate real-time discussions and help build the
> > > community. So people, particularly newcomers, are coming to the
> > > project and seeing 4 ways to communicate:
> > >
> > > * dev@ Mailing list
> > > * JIRA
> > > * GitHub
> > > * Slack
> > >
> > > As a result of broader trends in the world, they are electing to use
> > > Slack as their first, primary channel to interact with the project.
> > > This is bad for many reasons:
> > >
> > > * Slack is essentially private. While anyone can join Slack, chats are
> > > not archived in any public place, nor are they searchable through
> > > internet search portals. I do not think it meets the public
> > > communication requirements of Apache projects in general
> > > * We've exceeded the message limit for free Slack channels; upgrading
> > > to a paid Slack plan for Apache Arrow, with 650+ members, would be
> > > very expensive
> > > * Only 3 out of the top 20 Arrow contributors (by # of commits) are
> > > regularly on the Slack channel. I don't use Slack, for example, and I
> > > would rather not be expected to
> > > * We are geo-distributed in many time zones; even if we all used
> > > Slack, synchronous/real-time chat to discuss the project is frequently
> > > impractical
> > >
> > > Because of the "real-time" nature of IRC-like systems, people's
> > > discussions and questions get intermingled, so keeping track of
> > > longer-running discussions may be difficult. It's hard to know when
> > > someone's question has been answered or whether people have
> > > sufficiently discussed a particular topic.
> > >
> > > Many discussions or questions are by their nature asynchronous, and it
> > > may take 24-72 hours or more for Arrow contributors to make a
> > > thoughtful reply.
> > >
> > > As a result of all of this, we are missing opportunities to have
> > > deeper discussions, develop the Arrow roadmap, create new JIRAs to
> > > capture bug reports or feature requests, and other activities of
> > > healthy open source communities. Additionally, the private nature of
> > > Slack is causing organizational knowledge (particularly Q&A / FAQs) to
> > > essentially be lost. Users with questions won't stumble on answers by
> > > searching on Google (as they would with a mailing list or
> > > StackOverflow).
> > >
> > > I don't think Slack is necessarily bad for users in a corporate
> > > environment; in many companies it is expected that all people will
> > > have the Slack client open at all times. This isn't the case here,
> > > though.
> > >
> > > My strong preference in light of the activity I have been observing on
> > > Slack (which I encourage you to explore yourselves) would be to close
> > > the channel and direct discussions or questions take place on the
> > > mailing list, JIRA, or GitHub (all of which are archived on one or
> > > more ASF mailing lists). Since migrating to Gitbox, we have enabled
> > > GitHub issues on the repository, which has helped lower the barrier
> > > for newcomers, but a large percentage of the time GitHub issues would
> > > be better as JIRA issues or e-mails (which is what the GitHub issue
> > > template says, alas).
> > >
> > > Interested to hear the thoughts of others on this.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Wes
> > >
> >
>